Dawn Rasmussen knows that when something scares you bad enough, you should probably run towards it. And that’s what she encourages people to do when it comes to their careers.
Making a career change is scary and challenging for so many people, and this episode with Dawn Rasmussen will give you the energy and strength you need to progress or rebuild your career.
Don’t miss this incredible discussion about watering your career!
Episode Highlights:
01:21 - Dawn’s Water the Bamboo story
04:44 - Advice for people who need to pivot in their career
08:08 - Who was around for Dawn when she pivoted in her career
11:07 - About Dawn’s book Forget Job Security: Build Your Marketability
13:00 - Words of encouragement for the job seeker
17:01 - The myth of the overnight success
19:07 - What gets in the way of people building their career
21:30 - Self-doubt and beliefs
24:18 - Perfectionism
27:18 - Advice for Dawn’s 15-year-old self
35:51 - Running towards fear
40:00 - Which Bamboo Farmer trait resonates with Dawn the most
51:10 - Dawn’s routines when she’s at the top of her game
Guest at a Glance
Dawn Rasmussen, CMP, is a certified resume writer and the president of Portland, Ore.-based Pathfinder Writing and Career Services. Clients from across the United States and Canada and from all career levels have benefited from Dawn’s highly-focused and results-oriented resume, cover letter, and job search coaching services. Many professional groups as well as colleges and universities have appreciated the insights and expertise she shares during presentations on career management topics, and she is a frequently requested national speaker as a result. Dawn also has shared her knowledge as the official “Get the Job” columnist for One+ Magazine distributed to over 26,000 professionals worldwide, and written as a jobs expert for the “Career Oxygen” feature on Talentzoo.com, a job resource site for creative and marketing professionals.
Additionally, she has been a recognized career expert on Careerealism.com, which is a top 10 world-ranked career advice blog, and a regular contributor to the weekly TalentCulture.com’s #Tchat meeting of the career industry minds’ on Twitter. Dawn has been quoted in the Chicago Tribune, CBSMoneyWatch, and Careerbuilder.com on career-related topics.
When Dawn isn’t writing career documents, teaching, or speaking, she enjoys hiking in Oregon’s spectacular outdoors.
Notable Quotes
“It's a humbling thing to take stock and even admit to yourself that whatever you're doing right now is not working.”
“I would not be the success that I am without all my connections.”
“It's always important to remember that everyone has value.”
“So many times we closely align our self-identity with our work identity when things don't go well with the work, we feel like we're worth less.”
“Encouragement really is giving someone else the permission to be kind to themselves and look for the good.”
“You have to pay attention to the small stuff and be patient because just like you plant seed does not certainly turn into a tree overnight.”
“When it comes to your career, you have to own your accomplishments. You can't just assume that the other party automatically knows everything you've ever done.”
“When something scares you badly, instead of running away from it, it's time to turn around and run right towards it, of fearlessly.”
Transcript
Greg Bell: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Greg Bell. This is another episode of the Water the Bamboo podcast. Before we get to our next guest, make sure you subscribe to the podcast now, wherever you're listening to this podcast. You can also sign up at gregbellspeaks.com.
[00:00:33] This is an interesting time to be out in the market looking for jobs. So many people have been laid off due to COVID-19 and are forced to find what's next for them. So I'm excited for our next guest, Dawn Rasmussen. Dawn is the owner of a company called Pathfinder writing and careers, but she's more than a career coach, more than a career speaker, she looks to transform people and help them.
[00:00:57] And just so generous in what she does. In fact, when I have someone asking about career change, I send them directly to Dawn. I'm super excited that she's kind enough to join us here. She's the author of a terrific book Forget Job Security: Build Your Marketability. I love that title! Dawn, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to Bamboo Nation.
[00:01:17] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:01:17] Awesome. Thanks for having me, Greg. It's so great to be here.
[00:01:21] Greg Bell: [00:01:21] Thank you. One of the questions I have right off the bat is tell us your Water the Bamboo story. I met you 20 something years ago. And you've really watered your career and helped a lot of people with theirs. Tell us your origin of how you've Watered your Bamboo, if you would.
[00:01:36] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:01:36] Oh boy. Yeah, I'll try to do it, condense it down just a few sentences. So watering the bamboo from my perspective has always being thirsty for that water and for my own career. It's taken all these different twists and turns. But I think the thing that's really been the consistent factor here has been, always being, understanding that whatever I'm doing right now, even if it's, I mean, we all have had probably jobs that we couldn't stand, but I've had a couple of those in my past.
[00:02:08] Even if it wasn't a bad circumstance that you learn something that you can take and roll forward to your next job or your next role or your next career for that matter. So I would just say for me, I've had a lot of iterations in my career, but I've always had that thirst to learn and having a mindset where you're constantly looking for new ways to add to your knowledge and skills and abilities, then the doors open. And that's the magic of how your bamboo really starts to grow. Is that things start growing in places you never thought you'd ever see that grow. So it's been really exciting in a way, just to look back and see how it's unfolded.
[00:02:44]Greg Bell: [00:02:44] That's really interesting because one of the chapters in Water the Bamboo that sort of sparked me is this it's Messy in the Garden. How do you deal with the messes in the garden? When things are sideways and people's lives, how do you do that? And you alluded to that a little bit. I would ask you to be a little vulnerable here and talk about some of the messes you found as you grew your career and your business.
[00:03:04]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:03:04] I'll be really honest, I started out in television production and I was an assistant producer at a very young age. And then at age of 23 or 24, I had a bit life crisis. And I realized that whole television industry is pretty linear. And either you're in a television station mode and there's not a lot of creativity, or if you go privately into a production company, then you can be as creative as you want, but there's not as much money coming in. So I had a, oh my goodness, what am I doing moment? And I ended up thinking I like communicating and I liked the travel industry.
[00:03:41] So I completely reinvented myself. And I started in back at the ground floor. I literally started in the mail room at Travel Portland and then worked my way up. And so that grew into a successful career in the hospitality meetings industry, but it was really humbling to I'd studied telecommunications, television production in college, and that was my whole schtick basically.
[00:04:03] And then suddenly have to recalibrate and pivot completely. And I've had other pivots in my life so far too. So it's humbling. But if you accept the lesson that life is trying to teach you, it can become a very powerful tool. And I've learned a lot of new skills and met a lot of new people and.
[00:04:22] Interestingly enough things come full circle in ways that you could never imagine. I just was thinking about this other day, I'm starting to see a new theme re-entering my life right now, that kind of hearkens back to what I used to do. So it's just funny. To see that pattern emerging again.
[00:04:44] Greg Bell: [00:04:44] One of the things that you talked about, just right away, the pivot part, there's so many people right now, just to pivot and change, and you've done that a number of times in your career. But I imagine in the work you do, you see a lot of people having to reinvent themselves, that messy in the garden part for me is really important because a lot of people think success is so linear.
[00:05:07] Like you do this, you do that. It'd be really curious about not just your own story there, but stories that you've heard and how can people pivot now? Changing from, like you did invested in telecommunications and really worked really hard and realize, Oh, I got to pivot here in my career. What advice would you give people?
[00:05:24] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:05:24] It's a humbling thing to take stock and even admit to yourself that whatever you're doing right now is not working. Whether it's something that you're not performing well in, or maybe you don't know much about, or perhaps the industry itself was collapsing. I have a lot of friends in the hospitality and meetings industry right now.
[00:05:41] And of course with COVID-19 going on right now that's the one industry that really depends on people coming face to face. And we have the one thing that's preventing that. So I have a lot of colleagues and friends that have been laid off or furloughed or, they've lost their livelihood and they've seen their whole industry collapsed.
[00:05:59] So it's a very self-defeating time for a lot of folks in that industry, and this watering your own bamboo is remembering that everybody has value and then realizing that all these circumstances are external. It's not because you didn't do a good job. It's the whole industries has been kneecapped right now.
[00:06:16] So understanding. And really identifying what those key transferable skillsets are and then understanding where else can I go with those? How can I pack my bag a little differently and take that and apply it to a different realm. And part of it is doing a self-assessment and understanding what those transferable skillsets are. And then also looking ahead and trying to understand what industries are actually flourishing right now. And, for people in the hospitality industry, they take their job very well. Seriously more than most industries, because they're so passionate about what they do and it's part of their DNA.
[00:06:50] People are in the hospitality industry are immediately friendly, outgoing customer driven and that kind of thing. And they're feeling like a death in the family, basically with the loss of so many jobs, but it doesn't mean that they are leaving this industry forever. Maybe they're doing an interim job.
[00:07:08] And that's another part of the mindset here is to try to think about things in a positive set, a mindset is that you can come back to the industry when it recovers. And I also have been coaching a lot of people to help pivot, is to think about this interim time is actually a stretch assignment.
[00:07:24]Start thinking about, okay if I can't do what I've been doing, this is a great time to start acquiring new skills so when the industry does recover, you have a whole brand new skillset that can open up even more doors.
[00:07:34] Greg Bell: [00:07:34] I love that concept. Taking that interim period. As you did. I was thinking about you working in the mailroom, that's like legendary, heroic, you know it really, if you think about it, it's that's the hero's journey.
[00:07:46] One of the concepts in Water the Bamboo is this idea of create a cover crop. Because your bamboo takes sometimes five, six years to grow. But the question is like, what is your cover crop? And I think that I love the way you talk about that. What can I do in the interim to get me going where I need to go.
[00:08:05]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:08:05] Nourish yourself and replenish your soil basically.
[00:08:08]Greg Bell: [00:08:08] That's one way to think about reinventing. One of the things I think would be really cool for you to talk about there's this idea of being a singular genius, a singular bamboo farmer. I'm going to do it all by myself or whatever. And I know that for me, I know I have a deep Bamboo Circle or I think about my Bamboo Circle, my relationships. Talk about the ones that got you going in your career, to write your book, to do the things that you do and help the people, the way you help, from that pivoting time, who was around you to help?
[00:08:36]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:08:36] You know, I keep going back to the meetings and hospitality industry. Before I started my own business, 13 years ago, I was involved with a high school to career program and I was a meeting planner so I was on one side of the meeting and industry side. And then when I switched.
[00:08:56] And started to write resumes. I started wondering, geez, why on earth am I still a member of meeting professionals international? Because I'm a resume writer. What does that have to do with anything? And then it just smacked me in the forehead saying, Dawn, you're a speaker, that's a supplier, so you're still in the industry. And that is my Bamboo Circle. I have to say that I would not be the success that I am without all my connections. And they've helped bolster me. It's through all these different relationships and connections, and I became quite a speaker. In fact, one of the things I'm doing right now is a pivot myself, is that as a thank you to my circle for supporting me and helping my company be so successful is that I am actually donating my speaking services to all the MPI (meeting planner international) chapters on how to pivot right now, because this is the industry that helped me get where I am. And now there's people in absolute need right now that need a positive voice that gives them hope and gives them some ideas.
[00:09:54] So it's my legacy phase. And I don't know when you're uprooting your bamboo or whatever, sending out new roots and helping nourish others. And that's what I'm doing right now is to give back. And it's an incredible different mindset. It's the place of abundance and trying to help others.
[00:10:12] It's a necessary thing of all times. All my peers really need that kind of support. And I'm very honored and privileged to give that to them.
[00:10:20] Greg Bell: [00:10:20] That makes me feel so good. I know that about you. It's just like incredible, I've known you for a number of years and I know that you're so generous and giving back on a personal level, but also to the industries that you work with.
[00:10:33] And that idea of putting relationship first gets you the results, right? That's what you're saying. I think it's a really important thing to just so folks to recognize, but when you thinking about this notion of a Bamboo Circle, for me, it's really about giant timber bamboo grows. Sure. That's great. But the root structure on each stock grows over a hundred yards. Those deep connections. Because it's interesting, even like we're deeply connected to, and it's really hilarious how, that's all it is, a simple email and you're like on the podcast, which is really like testament to that.
[00:11:05] So I certainly appreciate that. One of the things that I want you talk to us a little bit about, tell us a little bit about your book.
[00:11:15]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:11:15] The book I called Forget Job Security: Build Your Marketability and it was bubbling along in my head, and then you reached out to me and you generously, you were part of my bamboo circle and that you really gave me that encouragement and just open up my mind to really start thinking about it in a more realistic terms versus hypothetical terms. And so it was that moment where you gave me that burst of sunshine that made my suit sprout up more.
[00:11:44] And so it was just the mind mapping of it all. And I to borrow another cliche image, I talked about starting in the mail room, well I ended up writing the book mostly in a Starbucks. So it's the writer in the coffee shop. Oh my gosh, how cliche is that? But it just helped me get out of my office and my usual distractions.
[00:12:02] And it took me a month, so I got done with it and then it was completed in nine months. So I call it by paper baby. But the Genesis, I think it was, I was already aware that this book was bubbling up because I could see so many people are struggling and there's so much competing information about how to really manage your career. And I think when we met, you just saw so clearly that it was just at the precipice of just bursting out. And so you gave me the gentle nudge to go over the cliff here. And it's been something that I've had a lot of feedback from people saying, this has been so helpful in their minds in ways they could have never thought. And for me, that's really gratifying.
[00:12:45] Greg Bell: [00:12:45] Yeah. It's interesting. Everyone has a book in them and I think there's a Bamboo Farmer in everyone and that kind of thing. And I think about the idea of encouragement is really important and. One of the things about encouragement is we're really only encouraged in our lives two times.
[00:13:00]We learned to walk and we learned to talk. As adults it's eh, shut up and sit down. But one of the things about encouragement that's really important here is I want you to talk a little bit about this. Cause I know this sort of is who you are and how you help clients. When folks come to you and they say help me with my resume. I know it's more than that. Somebody listening to this right now needs some encouragement right there. They've had the pivot from their job, or they're struggling with getting traction in their career. Give them some words of encouragement from your perspective.
[00:13:30] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:13:30] I think the biggest thing in terms of encouragement is that it's always important to remember that everyone has value. And so many times we closely align our self-identity with our work identity when things don't go well with the work, we feel like we're worth less. And obviously it's tied into the financial component too. So that obviously has something that's a measurable part of our self-worth, but encouragement really is giving someone else the permission to be kind to themselves and look for the good. And sometimes I think we are trained too much to judge ourselves very harshly. And so the encouragement part can take that weight off your shoulders and say, okay, Wow, I never thought of it that way. And you could just see the relief in people's faces.
[00:14:18] In my case, when I work with resume clients, I have one really amazing story that there was a meeting planner that reached out to me and she was absolutely just broken. And she had actually a physically and verbally abusive boss. I can't believe this. And she just was like, I have no value and that kind of thing. And I work with her quite a bit and gave her a lot of encouragement, but at the same time, as we worked for her resume, she actually had done some amazing things.
[00:14:49] We really articulated it. And so she could actually physically look at that on her computer screen at her resume to say, yeah, I have done this. Yes, I do have value. Fast forward a year later, I was at MPI World Education Congress, and we were at a meal function. There's 4,000 people pouring into this giant hall with all these dinner tables for food.
[00:15:10] And I saw an open spot and I sit down there and this woman said, sure. And then she looked at my name badge at about fainted and she's like Dawn. And I'm like, Yes. And she's it's me! And I was like, wait a minute. And she said you saved my life. And I'm like, what? And she told me that she got enough encouragement and strength from our conversation that she finally went out and started looking for another job and found her dream job.
[00:15:35] And she felt like she had totally changed as a person. And so it's very rare when you get that kind of feedback that you had such a transition. Form would have an effect on someone else, but that's the power of encouragement that they can see that they have value and that there's hope and there's alternatives.
[00:15:51] Greg Bell: [00:15:51] What a good nugget. Thank you for sharing that story. My word. Just thinking about that, because just some of the things you said, like this idea of somebody seeing their value. You said that a couple times now. And one of the things in this Einstein quote, just always resonates with me. He said that the fish is the last to know about water.
[00:16:12] And I always think that the genius is the last to know they are genius or you're the last to know how much you've helped somebody. And so a lot of times when we don't get those results or that feedback, we actually get discouraged. Am I doing the right thing? And that's amazing that out of 4,000 people, you sat at that table. That is magic!
[00:16:31] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:16:31] I know, I still , get chills talking about it.
[00:16:36] Greg Bell: [00:16:36] Oh, thank you for that story. That's really good.
[00:16:39] It brings to mind though, another question though, and one of the things that with Water the Bamboo I always think about this overnight success, right?
[00:16:46] So maybe I watered your seed to talk to you about doing your book when we met. I didn't create the seed, you did. But it's interesting when you think about that. So did the book happen overnight? No, it took time. You had to water. You had to nurture you. And we have to do that with our careers.
[00:17:01] But I've seen people just want the overnight success. It's just a myth that, I'll just sorta do a couple of things with my resume and send it in. And voila my career will get going. Talk a little bit about the myth of the overnight success and just what you've seen within your own career and with others, it takes time to build up that brand yourself in terms of marketability.
[00:17:22] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:17:22] It doesn't hurt to always dream big. I think that's important that you shouldn't let go of those dreams because it always gives us something to play around with in our mind, like the, what ifs are fun to speculate upon, but the reality is most of the time. It's not an overnight success.
[00:17:40] You have to put some time and effort into it. And, I see a little bit of this from the younger generation. They're much more immediate gratification and always thinking that okay, I got it, I got it. And I want to move on where's the next job opportunity on board and want to move up, whatever.
[00:17:56] So that's unfortunate, it does take time and patience and I've found that even just building my own business. But it's one step. And from the other it's one, when you're watering the bamboo really important to even pay attention down to the smallest leaves to see if there's a bug or something on there, that's chewing on it.
[00:18:12] That could be damaging the bamboo. So you have to pay attention to the small stuff and be patient because just like you plant seed does not certainly turn into a tree overnight. You got to think about it that way. And the bamboo is not going to turn into a 15 foot a stand of bamboo overnight either.
[00:18:28] So it takes time and it takes nurturing and just really understanding that you have to keep adding to it and nurturing it to really get where you want to be.
[00:18:38] Greg Bell: [00:18:38] That's really good stuff. I like this idea of bug eating your bamboo. I actually hate pandas. I cannot stand them. They travel the world trying to get them well, I don't want them eating my bamboo.
[00:18:51]I kid about pandas obviously, but the notion of a Panda for me is like procrastination. That's a Panda, there's all kinds of pandas out there like that get in people's way. What pandas have you had in your career or that you've seen other people have like things that's on them. What's a Panda that we should be aware of in terms of building our career.
[00:19:11]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:19:11] There are pandas that we own and then there's and does that are outside of us. So let's talk about that. So there's our own self doubt, which is our biggest Panda that can eat that bamboo down to the nubbins. So you have to understand that the more you doubt yourself. The bigger chunk invite it's taking out your bamboo.
[00:19:29] So it's really important to believe in yourself and not to the point of egotistical approach, but having faith in yourself and you can make that panda get really small. And so it won't take as big bites. But then there's external ones. And, actually let me address another thing about the pandas too, especially for women and people of color.
[00:19:55] I think this is important part of the national conversation right now, too, is that there are these concerns that there's external pandas, which are the ones that are the mean roving, evil fanged Pandas that are chewing down all the stands, of course, but you having that self doubt, but then also not, I think it's important to ask for what you want, but we have to try to get rid of those other ugly pandas too.
[00:20:21] So for example, women are very timid about asking for what they want. Oh there's a promotion coming up and I know that they'll look at me cause I've been performing really well. The woman doesn't necessarily go up and say, I want the job. And so in a career you have to go out there and actually ask for it.
[00:20:39] So in, no offense to the male species of course, but men are much more likely to say, of course I want the job . Yeah, I'm going to apply for it. And the women do a lot more hand wringing and self-doubt, so that's an external Panda, but then we've got these evil roving pandas, I was just alluding to that.
[00:20:57] We have to find ways to basically eliminate them because that's holding people back from their careers or in, honestly it impacts obviously the financial freedom that people have and economic equity that concerns me greatly. And so I think we're undergoing a big social upheaval right now. And my hope is that things will be much more equitable in the future so that everyone truly does have the same equitable opportunity to earn money and have career fulfillment, which then can make their own lives fulfilled too.
[00:21:30] Greg Bell: [00:21:30] I appreciate those comments. One of the questions I have out of that, you talk about this idea of self doubt and believing in yourself that's really an interesting one to talk a little bit more about, because one of the chapters in Water the Bamboo is about belief.
[00:21:43] I be really curious about how you coach people or talk about belief for individuals here, because self-doubt, as you say is, it's wicked, it doesn't take a lot of, self-doubt not to apply for the job or not ask for the job, but what advice would you give to people to build up their belief?
[00:22:03]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:22:03] I think my approach is, and this is what I tell my clients is that I am, they are already there. And what I'm doing is I'm polishing the mirror and holding it up so they can actually see that reflection themselves. So it's a completely different mindset. So I can't tell you how many female CEOs that are questioning well, I don't know if I should go for this role. I don't know if I'm qualified. It's like you are there. You've already done it. Don't doubt yourself. Look at all these things that you've done. And that's part of our resume conversation. When we're going through their accomplishments to show you've had an impact here.
[00:22:38]No, one's going to argue that isn't superior performance, so it's, they have to have that moment of have breaking down their own barriers of their belief in themselves to say, wow, I did do that. I'm going to own it. And that's the big difference.
[00:22:55] Greg Bell: [00:22:55] Yeah. That's I appreciate that.
[00:22:57] Do you have any insights to why you think men might not have so much of that? Is it some, is it. The way we train men or is it the way we train women? Do you have any insights on that? I'm just so curious.
[00:23:08] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:23:08] I think it's both. I think it starts with our parents and just how we're socialized. And as far as our gender roles and what the expectations are, it starts out at a very young age.
[00:23:19] They say if a woman is assertive than she's bossy, instead if a man is assertive then he's a leader. And so it's all these. Terms that are extremely loaded, that are influencing how people think about themselves. And that thought then influences how they think about themselves and what they actually do that affects their careers.
[00:23:39] And so it's a very powerful impact. And, just to be honest too, another thing is that parents also tell their kids. It's not polite to boast about yourself. And when it comes to your career, you have to own your accomplishments. You can't just assume that the other party automatically knows everything you've ever done.
[00:23:56] Even your current boss doesn't know everything you're doing. You have to really make sure you've got your finger on the pulse of all those things and be able to articulate the value that you've brought. So think about how you've moved the needle, and that's the value that you need to communicate to bosses.
[00:24:12] So that there's a better understanding that you're not just the static person, that's just pushing papers around your desk.
[00:24:18] Greg Bell: [00:24:18] Yeah. That's really good advice. One of the things I think about, and some of the comments you just made and you can address this too, is I think there's this sort of notion of perfectionism.
[00:24:27] So I gotta be perfect in order to be qualified. You said it earlier in the podcast here about this idea of stretching yourself, like even stretch into a job or stretch into an opportunity, but this idea of this. Being perfect before you get going. I think that stops a lot of people, whether they're writing a book or doing a speech or whatever.
[00:24:46]In fact, my first speech, there's no way I would have paid to see it. Like it would have been awful. It's interesting about that. Like the idea of stepping out of your comfort zone and not having it all together and being perfect. It's pulling back the veil a little bit.
[00:25:01] It's not about perfection. I heard that in your comments. So I just want you to talk a little bit about that.
[00:25:07]Thank you Dawn Rasmussen: [00:25:07] for bringing that up because that's actually a really great thing that you brought up because we hear a lot about that in an interview, like what do you do?
[00:25:14] What's one of your weaknesses and people always say Perfectionist. And so it's I actually hold myself up to a very high standard as many people do for themselves. And yet at the same time, I had a boss who sat me down and very kindly said to me, and said, you have such a high standard here that there's no such thing as perfectionism.
[00:25:35] You need to focus on excellence. And that shook me to my core, and it also gave me permission to not hold myself as well as my other team members to that impossible standard that I was pushing for so long. So the excellence factor is important. If you know something you're doing something well, the stretch part is how can I do it better? And that's another part of your career phase. There's different phases in your career. So you start out trying to learn things and prove yourself and scratch and get to the top of where you want to go. And then all of a sudden you've arrived and you realize, wow, I'm here. And then the next phase is okay.
[00:26:15] Now, how can I do it better? And then you move into the legacy phase, which is where, okay. I'm starting to move arc into another area. Maybe it's not even just the legacy phase. Maybe it's like maybe redirecting. It's more about, what you like to do and you know what you're good at and maybe repurposing it somewhere else.
[00:26:35] And then the final stage is the legacy where you want to go out on a high note. How can you give back? How can you. Have a positive impact. How can you help raise people up behind you that are up and coming? And it's these unspoken phases. And then there's the retirement phase. And for a lot of type a people, they're absolutely terrified of retirement because they don't know what to do.
[00:26:57] I'm like I've been pushing my whole life now what?
[00:26:59] Greg Bell: [00:26:59] Yeah, I've been watering. I've been watering. Like you say, give it away. That's really good. So many questions and thoughts come up out of that. And it's probably not fair I've gotten goosebumps like three or four times since you've been talking. I really appreciate your generosity. Great information for people. It's really good.
[00:27:18] When I think about this next question, I ask all my guests this question and it's, and I ask it for selfish reason. I have three girls and I think about this question a lot for myself, and that is what advice. Would you give your 15 year old self that's? Let's say you're like a freshmen, sophomore. Think back then, what advice would you give yourself that you really wish that you took on and had back then?
[00:27:44] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:27:44] This is going to be a little bit of a downer, so I apologize, but when I was 15, I was beat up in school. I was bullied. I actually tried committing suicide when I was 16. And so I was having experiencing abuse at home and then abuse in school.
[00:28:00] So it was an impossible scenario, but I actually wrote a blog post about this, but there's a long story and I don't know how do I have time to tell the story? Okay. So the story was. That I was beat up because my parents made me wear homemade clothes to high school back when everybody was wearing Gloria Vanderbilt and boat shoes and all that kind of stuff back in the eighties.
[00:28:21] And so I was in a very small high school. And I also had a very deep Southern accent. I moved to the Midwest and my skin was really dark. So I was immediately pegged as an outsider and I had a Southern drawl of course. And so I was completely isolated. And at home I was abused because I was complaining about homemade clothes and I was just like please just buy me jeans.
[00:28:44] That's all I want. No dice. So I was super depressed. And when I got to college, I had a college counselor helped me and start getting me out of that dark place. And then just fast forward, I've grown, I've gotten confidence and that kind of thing. And when my high school, 20 year reunion was coming up, I was a meeting planner.
[00:29:04] I remember I offered to try to help out planning the meeting the reunion. And so that was just because I volunteer all the time. And I thought maybe they might need help. And it turned out to be a brilliant stroke of genius because I got to interact with some of these former tormentors as adults.
[00:29:22] And what you have in your mind, you're carrying forward is not the same person. And most of these people had changed substantially. And so it erased some of those that harm in my mind. Because they knew that they hadn't turned out to be very horrible people, even though I got treated that way.
[00:29:39] In fact, I found out when one of my first worst tormentors was undergoing a lot of torment themselves at home. So they were acting out on me. So I helped plan the reunion. It went really well. And I got to see people. I was pretty nervous, but then I hit my stride. And and then the next year, one of my classmates nominated me for alumni of the year and I got it.
[00:29:58] And this was a school, small town, and they invited me back. I flew in, I was in the homecoming parade and then they put a plaque in the hall at my high school. Then at the football game, this was, I'm getting to a point here at the homecoming football game. They announced me as the alumni of the year.
[00:30:19] And I was sitting there in the store. Stands on a cool Wisconsin fall evening and looking at the lights. And it was just the same kind of setup was I remember being in high school, I was sitting by myself cause obviously, I didn't know anybody. I would flown in by myself. And I realized I kept looking in the stands and I kept looking around and it wasn't until I got back to my hotel room that night that I realized I was looking for my 15 year old self.
[00:30:44] And I wanted to tell that self it's going to be okay, it's going to be all right. And you gotta believe in yourself. And so I'm starting to get a little teary-eyed here, but it was just like, you have to believe even yourself, anything is possible. And so I remembered that little 15 year old girl that was scared and just feeling so hopeless.
[00:31:04] And my life has just blossomed in ways I could never...and I'm not going to get religious or anything. It feels like a miracle. I have been able to achieve everything that I've gotten in my life. And when I was at that age, I had literally no hope so it's, I don't know. It just, it's an amazing story, but it's it was just, I realized what I was looking for in those sand.
[00:31:27] And I wanted to take that little girl in my arms and give her a big hug and say, it's going to be okay.
[00:31:32] Greg Bell: [00:31:32] Absolutely. I mean that in itself is a lot of the bamboo story. Going from being that 15 year old girl, getting a beat up abused and in full circle, coming back to be alumni of the year and Oh, my word that is in itself.
[00:31:49] And there's so many people that are challenged by things like that from their high school days too.
[00:31:56] I was haunted by it.
[00:32:02] There had to be some level of forgiveness on your part to even circle back. A lot of times people will just want to not even go back to their high school, if you would, or what was that about?
[00:32:14]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:32:14] One of my philosophies in life is when something scares you badly, instead of running away from it, it's time to turn around and run right towards it, of fearlessly.
[00:32:25] And I found the closer you run towards it, the smaller it gets at strengths and shrinks. And so I was pretty nervous when I volunteered to help plan their reunion. But as I got more into it, here I am calling these people and emailing them and we. Came up with a little alumni directory and helping plan the party and all the activities and everything like that.
[00:32:45] All of a sudden, all that fear and what I had remembered in high school, they allowed to rent headspace and me just shrank and actually disappeared. So for me, it was like, wow, I finally was able to resolve those feelings and, the echoes of what happened in high school were no longer in my head anymore.
[00:33:06] Greg Bell: [00:33:06] Wow. Re run towards what you fear. That's a nice takeaway.
[00:33:11] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:33:11] That's like my mantra. Absolutely. I always say that the more you fear something, the more you need to turn around and run right towards it.
[00:33:17] Greg Bell: [00:33:17] Yeah, because I think it's interesting when I think about fear, I can't recall the one of our colleagues, he calls fear, false evidence appearing real, but to me, it's usually future evidence appearing real.
[00:33:30] Like it's some future a thing. I'm going to tell you a quick story and see what you think about this. I was doing a speech. I finished my speech. And as when you do a speech into the book signing, there's always a hanger around that has this question. And this young man comes up and he asked me this question.
[00:33:45] He says, Mr. Bell, I can't get a job. And I go you can't get a job. Of course, I'm thinking Dawn Rasmussen. And I asked him, I said, how many jobs have you applied to? And he says, none. And I thought, wait a minute, I can't get a job. He doesn't apply to any jobs. And I've all these people around signing books and doing all this stuff.
[00:34:03] And he's standing there and realized something's going on. I said, Hey, why don't you just hang on? And I went and after everyone left he and I visited. He and his roommate were there. And I said, tell me a little bit why about your job search and that, and he was in architecture, it was '08, the economy was crashing and you couldn't get a job.
[00:34:21] And so I made him a bet. I said, I want you to get 33 straight rejections. I'm going to be back here in four months, but if you can get 33 straight rejections. I'll give you a crisp a hundred dollar bill and I'll take you to dinner anywhere you want to go. We shook on it, exchanged numbers and four months later going into that town and it was hilarious cause I saw his roommate. I go where's Josh? He goes, he's working. I just started laughing. I said, I need the number. I called the number. And I said, Josh is Greg Bell. I want to know how many did it take? Cause that was the bet. He says, how many of you think he said, I want you to guess.
[00:34:55] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:34:55] I don't know.
[00:34:57] Greg Bell: [00:34:57] Yeah. He said eight and I was like, eight. I was like, and this is a leading up to a question. My theory was, talk about running towards fear. I realized he had some fear around this, my theory was that if he ran towards it and there was no consequences, whether he got it or not. In fact, if he didn't get it, he had a reward at the end.
[00:35:16] I said, it's probably impossible for this kid to get 30 straight rejections, because there's some lessons there when you run towards fear. I imagine that's what you find too.
[00:35:26] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:35:26] Yeah. I think when you run towards fear, you are willing to take some risks and it's networking and people have asked me, do you want to be an open network or a closed network?
[00:35:36] If your door is shut nothing can fall in. If your door's open, anything can walk in the door. So nothing ventured, nothing gained. So if you're running towards fear, it means you are taking those risks, but there's also a reward there, that's an important thing to remember.
[00:35:50] Greg Bell: [00:35:50] Give us some other examples from a career perspective, either from your own life or from others, where you've gotten people to run towards a fear or taking more risks, cause one of the chapters in Water the Bamboo is take risks. It's kind of based on what you just said, but give us some examples of that, where you've taken chances or others have.
[00:36:09]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:36:09] A good example of taking risk or at least dealing with risk is when people have, are addressing fear for that matter are a lot of people have had jobs have ended that wasn't their choice.
[00:36:21] So they got laid off or fired or terminated or whatever it was or their job was eliminated unquote. So they're fearful that will control their destiny. And so what I do, because, they're fearful that this. Will be a cloud that follows them everywhere. Oh you got fired from that job.
[00:36:40] And so what I try to do is coach people to understand that you're letting the fear control you and the way that you need to actually step up and run towards it and address it and be proactive. Even in the interview, you can even say, I was in a situation that I realized that I was not. Using all my skill sets or I was not a very good fit for the job.
[00:37:01] Me personally, I had a role that slightly before I started my own company, that I stepped into a job that was only three months long and it was slightly misrepresented as far as what my tasks were to be doing. And so there was one component of the job that I absolutely had zero understanding of how to do, and they had downplayed it in an interview and it turned out to be a much bigger role and required a lot more skill sets than they let on.
[00:37:30] And so I gotten into the role, made huge impacts in just three months in certain areas. But then I had to go to this one conference that was all about this other part of my role that I didn't know how to do. And I was sitting there. And I was listening to what people are talking about and I pretty much just burst out in tears.
[00:37:49] I'm just like, I can't do this. I have no idea how to do this. And I'm one who likes to get stuff done. I don't like to lose like most people. So I just realized that. Like a no-go and I had, it was humbling to say, you know what, I'm going to have to leave this job. It's not the right fit for me. And and it was really hard because an industry professional had recommended me for the job.
[00:38:13] So they had put their reputation on the line with the executive saying, yeah, Dawn's great. It should be great addition. Not only my departure so quickly. Be bad for me, but then it was bad reflected, poorly on this person who recommended me. So I actually wrote a letter to the executive of where I was working and explain that, I don't think it's fair to the organization that I continue in this role when I'm doing is.
[00:38:39] Taking up time from you finding someone else who is a better candidate. And actually I found someone and recommended them for the role because they had the whole package. So I created a problem, but then it created the solution. But then I also followed up with the professional who recommended me and said, this was the hardest decision in my life.
[00:38:55] And I take this very seriously that what I did. Is reflecting on them and I apologize, it just was not the right fit. And sometimes that happens, but I just wanted to acknowledge that he had gone to bat for me. It's owning it and then owning, if you've been fired, talk about what happened.
[00:39:10] I was not using the tools away I should have, but since then, I've really learned how to do the job correctly. Or, it's, you can't. The more you run away from, or try to explain a way things versus addressing it directly and owning it. That's where a lot of people get in trouble.
[00:39:26] Greg Bell: [00:39:26] Well, it's so clear to me that you're really skilled at what you do. It just giving people language for having tough conversations, and being vulnerable. There's that part of it. And also being confident too, like building, building people up and encourage them. So I just so appreciate it.
[00:39:43] One of the questions I wanted to ask, though, when I think about the Bamboo Farmer mindset, there's this mindset that every Bamboo Farmer has, and they have patients that persistence, they have self-confidence or they have self-discipline, they have courage and they have belief just.
[00:40:00] I'll go over those five again. So they have, for sure they have Bamboo Farmer mindset is one of belief in themselves. They have self-discipline, they have courage because you got to step out and do those things you want to do. But for sure, they have patience and persistence. Now of those five, which one resonates with you the most and why?
[00:40:21] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:40:21] Oh boy, I think courage is one. And interestingly enough, when I left my last job, they gave me a very nice sendoff and they had put a picture of me and then they written all these words that you use to describe me, and courage was one of the biggest ones on there. And I guess I feel like it's. I'm scared a lot.
[00:40:46] I'm actually believe it or not, sometimes I feel like a very timid, scared person sometimes, but there's another part of me. That's like the powerhouse in it's like nerves of steel will steal and it's you know what, I'm going to just try this. And if it doesn't work, then, I'm not going to beat myself up about it, but I'm going to learn and take that lesson and roll it into my experience.
[00:41:08] So I'm better equipped to make better decisions in the future. So it's a scary going out on your own as a business owner. And there was no guarantee. But that persists. All these other pieces of the watering bamboo come into play, obviously because you have to be patient and you have to be doing all the other things, keep all the balls in the air, but it's scary when you put your own self out there as your own commodity.
[00:41:38] And I have to say, I'm the worst boss I've ever had. I'd mentioned I'm a type A personality. So I'd drive myself to a lot of self-discipline and I had to give myself permission to take days off. And a friend of mine, she counseled me cause she had been doing freelance work and I was feeling, and I take my job so seriously, my work so seriously that I felt like my work is my reflection of me and my success.
[00:42:04] And when the phone wasn't ringing, I started feeling like, Oh my gosh, what's wrong with me? Game over. And so I, but my friend said, you know what? You're not thinking about all those other times where you're working 18, 20 hours a day. And when you do have in times when you've caught up and there is a little bit of a lull, give yourself that permission and safe place in your mind to take time off because you need to recharge your batteries.
[00:42:32] That took a lot of courage to be able to say that to myself, because it's my mind is . And it's wait a minute, I'm not going to do anybody any good if I'm burnt out.
[00:42:40] Greg Bell: [00:42:40] No, no, but at this idea of courage though, is an important one. I love that word courage because it means, it's French, it means it's courage, heart and spirit. So if you bring your heart and your spirit to your work and your life, what else is there, lead with your heart and your spirit. It's really an interesting term that you use. And particularly like when you talked about your background, thinking about some of the challenges you've had and some of the things you've overcome super courageous, 15 year old girl, getting through the challenges that you have.
[00:43:09]And so what else could be bad? If you ask for a job or do whatever, it's ah, you can't be worse than that. That's kinda what I think about some of the challenges I've had in my life, I use those for that. For it to have more courage if they say no like I get to go to park with my kids, it's way better than, some of the challenges I had in my childhood.
[00:43:27] One of the questions though, that I want to make sure I ask is this question I've asked I like to ask guests is what question, if you were me, would you ask yourself.
[00:43:37]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:43:37] We talked about it, Greg, is like now that you've have all the bamboo and you're ready to retire now, what do you do with it?
[00:43:47] And I think that's something a lot of people struggle with. And it's interesting because I'm seeing a lot of people that don't really have the answers that it, especially the ones that are really super driven and super type A it's like their work life. And even their personal life is built, been built around, pushing forward and goals and objectives and timelines and self-discipline and all of a sudden that overlay is suddenly changed. And I think that's pretty fearful for some people that they don't know, what does this mean? And then, especially if they've tied their identity to their work so closely, and all of a sudden they're not working, they feel like, wow. Who am I, this is something I've been carrying with me for so long.
[00:44:31] And now all of a sudden it's been stripped away essentially. So what is, what do I do with all this? And so I, that's the question I would ask. It's how do you transfer the bamboo to someone else?
[00:44:44] Greg Bell: [00:44:44] Yeah, that's a really good you're you keep talking about legacy and that kind of thing.
[00:44:48] One of the theories I have about this and this let's see how this plays in your mind, but we're all trained to do, so when you were a little kid, they, I said, what are you going to be? So what you're going to be is a future question. In fact folks used to ask me that question, what are you going to be when you grow up?
[00:45:03] Or what are you going to be? And I'm thinking. I'm already being, what are you saying? Exactly. I'm good. I'm already being, but so what happens though? I think people get, get this kind of caught up. So being as something they put off into the future, so I'll do this so I can have this so one day I can be retired or whatever that might so do have be. And it's fascinating because once you start on that track, what I noticed as people do want to have, but don't really understand what it means to be. They get caught up in doing and having I'll do this so I can have this and they just keep doing this back and forth.
[00:45:38] In fact, I remember my father, when he retired, he's hard worker guy will work 14 hours a day. Blue collar guy provided for his family. Just driven. And I remember sitting with him on the day he retired and we're sitting in his backyard. He looks at this huge tree and he goes Greg, I'm going to cut that tree down.
[00:45:54] I'm like, why nothing's wrong with that tree? I didn't say why, but I just listened. And he saw these bushes are going to cut these bushes down here. This underground pool is I'm going to dig the pool out. I'm going to cover it up. And I kid you not, Dawn. He named 30 years worth of work for 30 people. It was like unbelievable.
[00:46:12] And I thought, Oh my word, he doesn't know how to be. Yeah, he just worked and that kind of thing. And so what I realized in that moment is to be able to flip that around be doing half, flip the equation around, because you said this in the, in your work, what you do is you strip it down for people about what is it there being and providing to people. That's really an interesting sort of perspective on that, because if you can get into the being right now, then, you don't just keep being you. That's my theory.
[00:46:44] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:46:44] I have this really cool story and this kind of leads into my what's going to be my next book.
[00:46:50] Greg Bell: [00:46:50] Okay. All right.
[00:46:52] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:46:52] Right outside my window right here, he's come by several times while we've been talking. But this spring, I moved outside of Portland. We're out in the Dalles, Oregon, and we have about five acres of land that we live on now. And this spring, there was a tiny little fawn, a deer baby, that was abandoned.
[00:47:10] And he literally was crying and he ended up standing on my husband's feet. And so when he discovered us, his name is Four and we ended up taking him to the wildlife center and said, what's going on with this little guy? And the vet there said, okay, he's clearly abandoned. He had messed himself, and mom deers, clean their babies immaculately so there's no smell, and he was super hungry and he was dehydrated. And the fact that he wandered out was the true sign. He had been abandoned.
[00:47:37] So while we're sitting there waiting for the deer to be examined, my husband and I were just sitting there. And then the vet comes out okay I'm going to send them home with you.
[00:47:45] And she started telling me stuff about his care. It was like, what wait, what? So this began the saga of Four the deer, and he has taught me so much about being in the B. Deer don't think about the future. They don't think about the past or just right here in the present. And , it started out the first week he was in our house and my office, and then I moved him outside and he was in an enclosure at night and I actually slept in my tent outside for a month and a half.
[00:48:17] Because we have a lot of coyotes and all kinds of critters out here that can kill him. So he was free during the day. And then at night he was in the enclosure and I had my tent and enclosure and I would have to get up and feed him several times at night. Then he punched a hole in my tent. So then I moved my tent outside of his enclosure.
[00:48:34] So feeding him. And then after that, then he was getting bigger and bigger. So finally it was like, okay, it's time. He can run fast if he needs to. So I left the enclosure opened the first night. He stayed in there that night and the next day he stayed in part of the night and the third night he was gone.
[00:48:49] So I'm like, finally, I get to go back to my comfy bed after a month and a half. And so he's running free all the time. I've still, I'm actually at the very end of weaning him right now, but I walk them through the yard and it's just, he wants me to, and I'm trying to encourage him to explore his territory, but this whole process of being, and it's just like the right now.
[00:49:10] And it's just okay, there was one time I was walking him. He just decided to lay down on the trail. So I'm like, okay, I'm walking. And here he comes right now. I don't know if you want me to turn my camera so you can see him. It's like right out there right now, but anyways, so it's just the being in the bees.
[00:49:30] So anyway, so it's just sitting, sitting there and he decided to sit on the trail. So we sit there and, he'll usually, he's you're running around all day long, and then usually around the afternoon, he'll come sit. There's like a mat on the deck and he will come lay on the deck.
[00:49:44] Here's a right next to me right now. If you want to see him,
[00:49:52] Greg Bell: [00:49:52] That is so awesome. I read a story about Thor and something about Thor in a car with you, tell us about that.
[00:50:02] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:50:02] We live out in that country and there was a fire and we had to evacuate. And fortunately, we've actually had two back-to-back evacuations, I am his mom, and he wouldn't know what to do and I didn't know how bad the fire was going to be.
[00:50:19] So it's one of those things where he, he could, he wouldn't know where to go. And if the fire came right up here or maybe the firefighters would be running around, he would be really upset. So packed up the car with all of our belongings. And of course the deer came up.
[00:50:31]Greg Bell: [00:50:31] That is so awesome. I really appreciate that. I like this idea of animals keeping us present, but as a way think about it being present is really a challenge for people like, because I think that it's really interesting. So we can, when I talk about Water the Bamboo, I really want people to think about like their vision for their life and that, but sometimes people get too far in the future.
[00:50:53]It's hard for them to water today. I think that's really interesting. And this idea of being present just brings up one more question for me, or at least this question is what I found. When I talked to successful Bamboo Farmers like yourself, they have some winning routines. There's a few people I talk to.
[00:51:10] They say I got to exercise every day, or I've got to do this. What are your sort of winning routines when you're on your game? What kind of winning routines do you implement?
[00:51:19] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:51:19] It's funny because I am one of those very strange hybrids that both creative and also very detailed driven, so right brain left brain.
[00:51:29] I'm both. So it's really funny, but I, so I can have a very structured day. I'm very conscious of what I need to do. Like the deadlines I keep lists. Just to make sure I don't miss any deadlines and I know, okay when I'm done with this, I have to go do this. And I break my day out in half an hour blocks.
[00:51:47] So what's, what am I going to do my next half an hour? Is it prep for next client? Is it writing the client? Is it doing some email correspondence at business? Administration stuff. Thinking ahead what am I going to do with my time to optimize it? I'm keeping mindful of what's coming up so I can stay on target with that.
[00:52:04] But that being said, if I go out at lunch with Thor, I know I have time, but I will just go walk around. I'll lose track of time outside. So it's like the strange okay, I'm just going to relax and just be in the moment. Not structured. And I had this whole progression in my mind of like how my career was going to progress.
[00:52:25] And now I'm changing it up. I'm actually going to retire in about six years and I'm going to I've actually, my niece wants to buy my business. So I'm going to, she graduates college next year. I'll start five-year training program. After that, then she'll be running the business and making the money she'll pay me for, instead of out-of-pocket.
[00:52:44] So she's going to actually pay me as the company makes business. So I'll get a return on my investment and then I'm going to write books and like I've already got a book for Thor, a children's book for Thor on the way to the publisher right now. So it's like it's being structured. And being disciplined, that's like my secret, but at the same time, be always being flexible because if you're so regimented, you end up missing out on some of the magic that can happen.
[00:53:14] Greg Bell: [00:53:14] Yeah. I liked that because I think structure creates creativity. I do I think having some structure, you gotta outline a little bit, but it actually creates a room for it. So I appreciate that sort of that thought process.
[00:53:26] So one question is how do people get ahold of you? If I'm trying to figure out my resume I'm in wherever I am. How do I reach out to you? And people are going to be really moved by this conversation and some of the things you've shared and I always try to send people to you, but how do we all get ahold of you? What do we do?
[00:53:44] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:53:44] The websites, Pathfindercareers.com. So you can reach me there.
[00:53:49] And it's Pathfinder is singular. Sometimes people want to put s after it. So it's pathfinder is a Nissan Pathfinder, but Pathfindercareers.com. And my phone number is (503) 539-3954.
[00:54:02] Greg Bell: [00:54:02] That's super helpful. Is there any parting message you want to give to a Bamboo Nation before we do the Water the Bamboo oath?
[00:54:09]Dawn Rasmussen: [00:54:09] Just think that your guy to watering the bamboo, just so completely hits the nail on the head to really living a fulfilled life. Not just personally, but others around you. It's like you said, the root systems are all interconnected. And so if the root systems are healthy, then the grove is hand healthy too.
[00:54:28] And we can all work together and benefit from each other. I just think that all the concepts that you cover in your book are just absolutely fabulous. So I just feel very fortunate to have gotten to know you and include you in my own damn bamboo circle too.
[00:54:43] Greg Bell: [00:54:43] That is terrific. Thank you for that. But we're going to do the Water the Bamboo oath. I have my Water the Bamboo band on, so it's just going to do it with us. Raise your hand. Repeat after me.
[00:54:54] No matter what challenges come my way.
[00:54:57] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:54:57] No matter what challenges come my way.
[00:54:59]Greg Bell: [00:54:59] I will.
[00:55:00] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:55:00] I will
[00:55:01] Greg Bell: [00:55:01] continue.
[00:55:02] Dawn Rasmussen: [00:55:02] Continue
[00:55:03] Greg Bell: [00:55:03] To Water the Bamboo.
[00:55:04] To Water the Bamboo
[00:55:07] thank you so much. I could talk to you for hours, but I know you're busy and have a busy day and that, but I really appreciate all the just genuine nuggets you've shared here.
[00:55:16] It just means so much to me to have you as a friend to have you in my circle, but also just know that it's going to benefit Bamboo Nation. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Great. You take care. Thank you. Thanks for being on. Okay. Bye-bye I love that run towards fear. What are you willing to do? Is the risk worth the reward.
[00:55:36] Most of the time, the risk is totally worth it. And you're also learning something in the process. Thanks to Dawn Rasmussen for joining us today. Her book is called Forget Job Security: Build Your Marketability. What a great title. I'm Greg bell. And thanks for listening to the Water the Bamboo podcast. Keep watering.